Hotlines

Trevor Jones: [00:00:00] Welcome to HOTLINES at Colorado Ready for Justice. Today, we are [00:01:00] here at the CCJRC, the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition, and we are speaking with Pam Clifton, who has been a member of the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition, uh, for 20 years now. And we're going to be speaking to her today about the book she has written called "Tell Them You Love Them."

I'm here today with my prestigious colleague from Remerg.

Darren Smith: Darren Smith, executive director of Remerg. Thank you for having me back!

Trevor Jones: Welcome back, brother. Thank you. It's good to have you. Pamela, before we launch off into your book, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself?

Pam Clifton: Yeah. My name's Pam Clifton.

I'm the manager of constituent services for the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition, and I've been here since January 1st, 2006, working on re-entry issues and, um, trying to inform the public and our community about the, uh, struggles, uh, that folks have trying to rebuild their lives after mistakes have [00:02:00] been made.

Trevor Jones: Uh, you are well-known in the justice world for having created the Go Book, the Go Guide, and we appreciate your work with that. And this new venture, your new book out called Tell Them You Love Them, um, would you like to tell us a little bit about that?

Pam Clifton: Yeah. Um, when I first, um, met the executive director, Kristi Donner, um, they had put together a book, um, based on some of the information that we have given them called Parenting From Prison.

And so Parenting From Prison was published, I think, in 1999. And, um, then it was never updated or anything like that, and things have changed so much over the last 20 years that I thought it was time for a, a refresh, right? And the Go Guide was so successful because it integrated the stories of real people and, um, with the facts of, uh, and realities of prison and, and [00:03:00] reentry.

And so, um, Tell Them You Love Them was born from that.

Darren Smith: This book explores, um, the themes of incarceration and family and resilience, the things that have brought me to working in this industry, right, this community, my own family, my own experience- Mm-hmm ... of having a parent and a sibling that are going through the justice system.

What do you hope readers take away from, uh, your story, especially those that haven't experienced the criminal, um, legal system yet?

Pam Clifton: So this is a guide for parents who are navigating the stormy intersection between criminal justice and child welfare. And what people really need to understand is that folks are fighting to stay connected with their kids, but systems don't always talk to each other.

Darren Smith: Mm-hmm.

Pam Clifton: And if systems don't talk to each other, they don't understand what each other is capable of or what they are incapable of. And so I wrote it [00:04:00] be- I guess because when I was inside, there was nothing that spoke to the emotional reality of being a parent in prison. Nothing explained how to communicate with caseworkers.

Um, they have, there's timelines with court dates and, and, um, foster care and all of those things that you can't just get on the phone and call somebody.

Trevor Jones: Mm-hmm.

Pam Clifton: Right? So the purpose, I guess, was to teach people how to protect custody, right? How to work with the courts. How to, and how to keep your families close, how to communicate with your family, how to communicate with your children, no matter what age they are, right?

And so I just wanted parents to have a resource that told them the truth more than anything else, that gave them some practical guidance, but may help them to understand that they're still a family. They're just not living together. And their kids need to understand that two things. One, that of course they still love them, and two, [00:05:00] and nobody really understands this, that they're safe.

Mm. Because kids worry tremendously that their parents aren't safe, and that wears on them. Mm. And, I mean, the stress... When you see a four-year-old stressed out because they're worried that daddy's not safe is just heartbreaking. So for them to be able to communicate that reality to them is, is an amazing opportunity.

Darren Smith: I was in my 30s when my mom went to prison. Yeah, it's- And I was still stressed out. Oh, yeah. Right? Like, I, I wasn't a teenager. I wasn't four years old, but I was still stressed out, and it- It's

Pam Clifton: scary.

Darren Smith: Yeah. Yeah, it was really scary. And you're

Pam Clifton: worried if they're safe.

Darren Smith: Yeah.

Pam Clifton: Right? Yeah.

Darren Smith: Definitely.

Pam Clifton: This isn't about bad choices or being a bad parent, right?

This is about people trying to hold onto their children while nav- navigating the trauma that they've gone through, the trauma that the kids are going through, navigating stigma and systems that are confusing and often unforgiving. It's about [00:06:00] remembering that the relationship with your children doesn't suddenly stop when they're technically adults, right?

And so many people live in that, in that cocoon of absolute terror that they're not, that they're gonna lose their kids if they don't have some control over their lives until they're 18, right? And so I have to constantly remind people, "Hey, 18's just a s- just a, just a benchmark," right? Often the relationship with your children is far more, um, developed afterwards.

Darren Smith: Yeah. I'm, I'll be 42 this year. Mm-hmm. And my relationship with my mom has just shifted, right? And you still need your mom. I'm a grown man- Always need your mom ... and I still need my mom.

Pam Clifton: Right?

Darren Smith: Yeah.

Trevor Jones: Pam, you speak with a lot of conviction and passion as you're talking about this, and I think a lot of your own personal experience comes through in the book.

Um, writing about personal experiences can be healing and also very challenging. [00:07:00] Um, what was it like for you writing this book?

Pam Clifton: Writing this book was both a release, and a reckoning.

Trevor Jones: Mm-hmm.

Pam Clifton: Putting my story on paper helps me make sense of what I went through and gave me a way to turn those experiences into something useful for other parents.

And, I mean, there were days when the writing was really heavy, right? And days when it felt like freedom. But every page reminded me why I was doing it, because I knew that there was someone else out there in a cell sitting in that same emotion, sitting in that same fear and pain and confusion, and wondering if their, if their child still loves them, right?

And for me, it started 29 years ago today, right? It was my, uh, today's my sober anniversary. It's the day I went to prison. But my son was put up for adoption at the age of five, and he was adopted [00:08:00] out. And when he turned 18, he called me and said, "Mom, can I come home now?" And I said, "Of course." And it just so happened to be on this date 15 years ago.

And so, um, developing that relationship after he turned 18 has been amazing. Um, and we had a lot of work to do, but the love was there. And as long as you love each other, you can get through anything, right?

Darren Smith: Unconditional love can carry you through any challenge.

Pam Clifton: Without a doubt.

Darren Smith: Yeah. Um, how do you think storytelling can change the way people think about incarceration and reentry?

Pam Clifton: St- storytelling makes people visible, right? Policies, statistics, and, and headlines can make incarceration and the people involved in it very abstract. Um, but [00:09:00] stories remind us that these are very real people, right? And put a face to those people, and, uh, especially parents and children and families that are trying to survive systems that weren't built for them.

But when people are able to hear lived experience, it shifts the narrative from judgment to understanding, and it helps communities see that reentry isn't just a legal process or a punishment process. It's an emotional and relational one. And stories create space for compassion, and compassion creates space for change

Trevor Jones: Did you touch on where you came up with the title, Tell Them You Love Them?

Pam Clifton: I was talking to somebody, a coworker, and I'd asked him to write a piece, and he's a therapist. And, and it was embedded [00:10:00] in a paragraph that he wrote about what's important. And I remember I walked to Starbucks to get some coffee, and that's all that could-- I could hear in my head. That's the only thing that mattered.

Mm. Right? And that's the only message that I needed to get across. So why wouldn't I name the book that? Because that's what's important. The message is really simple. Love is very powerful. Even in the hardest circumstances, whether you're incarcerated, navigating child welfare, or rebuilding your life after release, your connection to your kids and their connection to you is what matters, right?

It can help them survive distance, stigma. And so Tell Them You Love Them helps parents navigate child welfare and stay connected to their children during incarceration, something made harder when addiction is treated as a crime, [00:11:00] 'cause addiction is a public health crisis, not a criminal justice crisis.

But if there's one thing I want folks to remember, it's this: real community safety comes from support, not punishment. When people have access to tre- treatment and stability and, um, all of the things that make life good, then they are gonna be better in their community, their families are gonna be better, and, um, they're gonna come together as a whole.

Darren Smith: Hmm. Do you have any last thoughts of things that you might wanna share before we go today?

Pam Clifton: So my lived experience is at the heart of everything I write and everything I work on. I've been steeped inside the systems that I'm trying to change, whether it's child welfare or incarceration, addiction, re-entry, and the unique challenges that women face.

And those experience shape the folis- policies that we advocate for today, whether it's, uh, drug policy or how criminalization doesn't heal families, doesn't heal [00:12:00] people. It hurts communities. And when we puni- punish addiction instead of treating it, parents lose custody, communities lose stability, and people lose their chance to recover.

And so the books come directly from those lived realities and the lives of the people that are embedded in them as well, the stories that are there and how they lived through them. And so I think humanizing the issues be- behind our policy work is the, the most important thing that we can get across to people.

So they need, um, need to understand that every- anything can change, right? And that includes systems, that includes people, that includes everything.

Trevor Jones: Pam, where can people find a copy of your book?

Pam Clifton: You can get a copy on, um ... It's digitally available in- on tablets in the Department of Corrections, and, um, at the...[00:13:00]

Tell Them You Love Them, I think, is also available at some of the sheriff's offices, the jails. Um, but you can also get it on our website at www.ccjrc.org under Publications. You can get a digital copy. Um, you can have a hard copy. Um, if anybody needs one, they can just reach out to me. Uh, my email is pam@ccjrc.org, and the phone number is 303-825-0122.

Trevor Jones: Thank you for spending your time with us on Hotlines, Colorado Radio for Justice's reentry resource, done in collaboration with Remerg. I'm Trevor Jones, co-host with Colorado Radio for Justice. You can catch Hotlines on our airwaves at 9:00 AM and 9:00 PM weekdays, as well as anywhere you stream your [00:14:00] podcasts.